On this episode of the Smashing Podcast, we ask what’s the important thing to an awesome keyboard? Is that this important a part of our every day toolkit simply neglected? Vitaly Friedman talks to professional Marcin Wichary to seek out out.
Present Notes
Marcin Wichary on Twitter
Marcin on Mastodon
Marcin’s web site
Weekly Replace
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Placing Gears In Movement: Animating Automobiles With HTML And SVG written by Paul Scanlon
A Step-By-Step Information To Constructing Accessible Carousels written by Sonja Weckenmann
Transcript
Vitaly Friedman: He’s an awesome designer, glorious author, and fantastic engineer. Initially from Szczecin, Poland, he used to work as a design lead and a typographer at Medium. He was a fellow of Code for America and a UX designer at Google working with the Chrome search and homepage twin groups. He now works as a design supervisor and editor design lead at Figma in San Francisco. He studied at West Palm College in Szczecin, and accomplished his doctoral in human laptop interplay in Eindhoven, Netherlands, and likewise in Amsterdam. Apparently, he speaks not less than — nicely, that’s from what we all know — six languages together with Polish, Dutch, and a little bit little bit of English. Now he’s extraordinarily obsessive about many issues, however most notably hyperlink underlines, typesetting, fonts, and guess what? Typewriters.
Vitaly: So we all know he’s an awesome designer with a eager eye for typography, however do you know that Marcin is a former Polish handball goalkeeper, and after hours he likes to pressure his buddies to look at Sneakers, time and again and again and again. It’s like Groundhog Day once more. And he managed to place Pac-Man on Google’s homepage. My Smashing buddies, please welcome Marcin Wichary. Good day Marcin. How are you doing immediately?
Marcin: I’m smashing, however the handball gamers… That was humorous. There’s a man whose identify precisely like me, who’s a handball participant.
Vitaly: Oh, I believed it’s you. Marcin, this might not be coincidence. He seems such as you.
Marcin: Type of seems like me. It’s humorous as a result of I’m type of little bitter as a result of he has a Wikipedia entry and I don’t. But in addition there are these cool YouTube movies of individuals chanting his identify like Marcin Wichary. And I generally play them and faux that that’s me.
Vitaly: However I’m positive that there are fantastic listeners who’re listening to this very recording proper now… They’ll be greater than impressed and excited to create a Wikipedia web page for you, simply want to inform us about your story, all of the issues that sometimes go in a Wikipedia web page.
Marcin: When the Wikipedia learns about this collusion right here. I don’t—
Vitaly: That’s okay. I feel we’re all secure right here. We now have fantastic pleasant folks listening to us. Marcin, it’s such a pleasure to see you once more. I imply we haven’t seen one another for.. a very long time. You spoke at SmashingConfs some time again as nicely, and it’s such a pleasure. You by no means change, do you? You by no means change. One factor that basically excites me about you is that you’re actually obsessive about issues, however in a great way. I imply, not in a nasty manner, proper? In good methods. And I’m questioning, perhaps it’ll be a superb begin simply so that you can briefly share your story. The place did it come to be? Did you need to turn into an internet designer while you have been rising up?
Marcin: Oh, that’s an awesome query. I’ve heard this… So the reply might be no, in as a lot as internet design didn’t exist once I was rising up.
Vitaly: Precisely. Yeah.
Marcin: For form of an aspiring little nerd, I bought fairly fortunate as a result of my dad had this type of dream job in the intervening time, which was repairing arcade video games and pinball machines. And it’s enjoyable as a result of it’s clearly video games, proper? It’s good to have the ability to go into the arcade and play without cost in early nineties or mid-nineties. Nevertheless it’s additionally enjoyable as a result of you possibly can form of open them up and see how they’re constructed. And that I feel was what bought me hooked into, “Oh, this enjoyable was designed, made by anyone.” And you’ll search for the entire belongings, you possibly can open the pinball machine and poke your finger at issues and—
Vitaly: Which is, after all, what you probably did.
Marcin: I did, yeah. I extremely suggest it when you have a pinball machine subsequent to you, ask them to open it up and present you. There’s a lot underneath the play area. And that type of led ultimately to computer systems and form of programming and I feel as many individuals most likely, I felt like I used to be only a dangerous programmer who bought distracted by telephones and colours and recreating UI components.
Marcin: And ultimately a lot later I discovered that is truly one thing like what I’ve been doing. It’s referred to as UX design or interplay design or no matter you need to name it. And that grew to become form of my factor, however not earlier than I truly invested in plenty of turning into a programmer, as a result of I believed that’s the closest to the place I used to be. And so I backed into the… There’s the traditional ought to designers code query, which we shouldn’t actually discuss it as a result of it’s unanswerable. However I form of stroll myself again into it accidentally. I used to be a programmer first and I form of grew to become a designer with all of this programming baggage. Which truly ended up being form of not less than helpful in my line of labor.
Vitaly: However I imply one factor that’s actually pursuits me more often than not is that I had a really related story as nicely once I was rising up. As a result of I keep in mind there was no factor, turning into a designer, you simply do some internet stuff and then you definitely form of webmaster in a manner. And one factor that I seen lots of my buddies who have been transferring into design and this internet factor, they got here from all over the place. They have been doing all various things. A few of them have been constructing glasses, the others can be architects, the others can be writers. And it was this unimaginable second of virtually a wave, a really sturdy wave of simply folks from everywhere coming in. And it felt like you’re extra… You might be simply turning into one thing new, one thing fully new.
Vitaly: So it’s such as you was that particular person, then you definitely’re turning into a brand new particular person. Do you’re feeling, and that is second of transformation, not less than that is how I skilled it, did you’re feeling the identical manner? You’ve turn into anyone else over time otherwise you simply grew naturally into this function being eager about every little thing digital? And clearly we’ll discuss additionally a number of the know-how. Historical or I’d say… Not historical perhaps, however classic know-how. So I’m actually questioning simply what introduced you to that particular place. You possibly can be doing so many issues, not simply programming, not simply design. There are all these issues.
Marcin: It’s an awesome query and it’s one thing I’ve clearly been considering loads about, as a result of it’s consideration between two issues. One is have having a plan. I need to turn into this particular person, I need to do these issues. I need to spend money on that. Which you’ll be able to and possibly ought to should some extent. However I feel extra of my profession has been reflection on what issues meant to me, and what excited me, and what I gravitated to, and seeing what extra I can do with that and the way I can join it to different issues. Like to offer you a selected instance, I joined Medium again within the day as a result of it simply appeared like terribly cool, and large form of deal with craft, a small crew, a really lovely but additionally significant product that form of helped folks write. Which felt necessary to me, at all times felt necessary to me. However within the means of it, I began writing increasingly more another way.
Marcin: And I feel Medium was truly form of necessary for me. You joked about me realizing six languages, which I solely know two very nicely and some poorly, however at that time in my life I nonetheless wasn’t actually positive if I can write in English, as a result of my authentic language is Polish. And Medium bought me over that hump. It bought me snug with English sufficient after which I began writing about this typewriter stuff and folks began reacting to it and sooner or later I used to be like, I related these three issues. One was I’ve at all times needed to put in writing a e-book as a result of my mother was a librarian and I believed books is the most important factor you are able to do in your life. If you happen to write a e-book, you paid your dues on this planet. After which I crossed some type of a threshold the place I might do it in English.
Marcin: I felt for the primary time English is my language. After which I discovered a factor to put in writing about, utterly accidentally. So I feel for me it is, I’ve by no means actually felt there was an inflection level that I grew to become a brand new particular person. However in hindsight I at all times form of have a look at these connecting issues and saying like, “Oh, ought to I make investments extra in typography as a result of I appear to be actually into fonts.” However I didn’t know I used to be. I don’t know. Possibly sooner or later pinballs are going to be again and I would be the pinball man. I don’t know, that’s most likely not going to occur. However that’s form of typically how I considered it. Assume a little bit bit about what you need to do, but additionally join the issues that you have already got, not less than labored for me.
Vitaly: Yeah. I imply one different factor that basically pursuits me is that all of us get tremendous enthusiastic about know-how. All of us are virtually possessed or obsessed I’d say by this notion, “Oh, we will do issues sooner and we will do issues higher.” And what I discovered is that though we attempt to make issues sooner and we attempt to make issues higher, the humanity remains to be extremely busy. We used to assume that know-how goes to assist us and we’re going to be doing much less and we’re going to be just a bit bit extra relaxed in life. Nevertheless it looks as if we’re doing increasingly more and extra with that know-how.
Vitaly: However what I actually like and what actually provides me a little bit little bit of fascination I suppose, is that you’re at all times wanting again. You might be virtually obsessive about outdated know-how. I imply, most likely additionally with new know-how, perhaps I’m flawed right here. However I’m questioning is one thing flawed with trendy know-how that you’re virtually spending most of your time with the outdated one?
Marcin: What is not? Yeah, I imply there’s at all times one thing flawed with know-how. I feel we undergo these cycles the place we get excited after which we reevaluate it. I feel crypto simply went by this section. I imply actually, as a lot as I feel you and I each love the online, there are most likely some moments the place we’re like, “Oh, was this good for all of us, or did it create some challenges?
However I don’t assume Tim Berners-Lee is simply universally proud of what got here of internet. However I feel usually, I can’t say the outdated… I need to truly very particularly keep away from, “They don’t make them like they used to,” form of line of considering as a result of I don’t assume it’s notably useful.
Marcin: I feel for me plenty of it’s about connecting the previous into the longer term and remixing it. Actually this week at my work, I’ll most likely use some issues that I discovered in my analysis for the e-book in regards to the keyboards, as a result of keyboards are nonetheless round and typography is identical. Typography form of has all of those waves and existed for a whole bunch of years, and you’ll seize issues from the previous and it’s a must to watch out, as a result of nostalgia is extremely highly effective however not at all times helpful. And you’ll see what nonetheless is sensible and what are you able to be taught from the previous, and what you possibly can throw away, or what must be revisited. As a result of there’s plenty of baggage there. I don’t know the way a lot… I used to be simply interested by this. Are you aware Playdate, the little recreation machine with the crank?
Vitaly: Yeah. Sure, sure.
Marcin: They made it, I feel final 12 months. Shipped it precisely on the pandemic time, so it slowed them down. Nevertheless it’s this lovely little system. It’s a handheld system with video games with a monochrome display screen and this type of unusual person interface. However what I actually like about it as an announcement is that it tries to barter with nostalgia. It’s not simply an emulator of an outdated recreation. It’s extra type of taking a look at a previous and saying, “What of these issues that we moved on from have been truly attention-grabbing and higher.” Possibly the constraints of a monochromatic display screen with fats pixels is one thing attention-grabbing for creativity. Possibly a tool that’s type of small and devoted to 1 factor, it’s nice and we form of misplaced it over time. However I additionally say we would like web connectivity. We would like a very nice steel system that feels nice.
Marcin: It’s this determining recombine these issues. And I feel that’s finally essential to me. That was the identical story with Underlines at Medium. It wasn’t that permit’s be perpetually indebted to the gods of typography from 200 years in the past, who designed an ideal underline. As a result of that’s actually not that thrilling. I imply it’s from the craft perspective, nevertheless it was actually attention-grabbing, like how can we make hyperlinks that look lovely, as a result of then you definitely need to hyperlink to extra issues. And linking to extra issues, it’s only a very, very highly effective factor that you are able to do.
Vitaly: And a really distinctive factor that we will do. Interactive media as nicely, proper?
Marcin: Yeah, and I used to be impressed by simply individuals who write in a manner… That’s what I miss generally of writing for “paper.” That you just can’t hyperlink to issues. As a result of that’s simply like-
Vitaly: Effectively, now we have footnotes.
Marcin: Yeah, yeah. However you can’t… Do you keep in mind John Syracuse’s MacOS 10 opinions? They have been on Ars Technica for a lot of, a few years. Each time a brand new MacOS 10 got here out.
Vitaly: Yeah, I keep in mind. Yeah, yeah.
Marcin: And he linked everywhere, and it was simply genuinely inspiring how a lot it modified the best way you would learn actively.
Vitaly: Yeah, however do you assume Marcin, I imply I form of preserve coming again to this truly, for the final couple of weeks. By some means I keep in mind vividly this notion of imperfection once I was rising up. So I assumed that now we have an analogous age and I keep in mind viewing all these TV reveals, and the conversations and the damaged, semi-broken web connection, and fairly dangerous telephones and all these items. And it felt so human to me one way or the other. Like, “Oh, after all this factor is damaged.” And that’s high-quality.
Marcin: And I really feel like these moments of virtually serendipity, I suppose. I imply, I’m not making an attempt to be nostalgic right here only for the sake of being nostalgic, however I’ve this sense that perhaps now we have an excessive amount of of what we truly need lately, when it comes to know-how. So you possibly can watch something you need with the clicking on a button. There may be this notion of, you don’t should go wherever. The whole lot is correct right here.
Marcin: However then I form of favored this second. I watched one of many foolish nineties motion pictures, and there was this second the place you’d go to this VHS retailer and you’d choose up the VHS tape and you’d have an countless dialog with your folks about what are we going to look at, with out truly watching a trailer of it. Type of think about what it’s going to be. And I really feel like, “Oh wow.” I don’t have that have anymore. We simply choose one thing up based mostly on IMDB rating and name it a day.
Marcin: Yeah, I feel we’re determining what this type of abundance of issues means to us. I feel there’s a parallel argument you would make, and I feel some folks made, that for instance, Twitter with its type of virality and outrage and all of that, is simply an expression of, we have been by no means meant to be related to so many individuals so intimately. That’s simply not how we’re wired. The Dunbar quantity exists for a cause, and I feel hopefully we’ll determine it out. I don’t know.
Vitaly: I’m very optimistic about that. I’ve at all times been.
Marcin: Yeah. I feel you possibly can see even within the wake of Twitter information, folks making an attempt to assume… Possibly the type of small curated set of blogs that I comply with is definitely a little bit bit extra human, such as you say. Possibly the Google reader was proper all alongside. And so hopefully we’ll modify and work out what’s that type of human second on this scale of zero to every little thing.
Vitaly: However I additionally assume the human know-how, I need to see extra of human know-how. And I feel that’s ultimately the hub. Really, this can be a good segue to your work. Just like the Figma editor, the place you see cursors coming in and transferring round and doing issues collectively. I at all times really feel just a bit bit of pleasure once I see cursors transferring in and folks coming in, and some extra of us simply mess around, they usually do these items and generally it’s damaged and generally this isn’t form of… I don’t know. Sticky notice or no matter.
Marcin: It’s simply falls over the cliff or something. However I like this notion. It looks as if that is actually one thing that basically connects me with folks everywhere in the world, simply the cursors. Possibly you would truly converse a little bit bit extra about what precisely you’re engaged on than the Figma context. I seen you’re engaged on the core, the guts, the traditional Figma editor, however particularly keyboard shortcuts, if I’m not mistaken.
Marcin: Yeah, I’ve turn into the keyboard particular person additionally at work as a result of, for apparent causes, I suppose. I joined Figma virtually 5 years in the past, and initially I used to be one of many designers. I work on the primary model of auto structure and a bunch of typography issues, choice colours, which I feel turned out nicely. And plenty of smaller issues, as a result of I feel we hope that Figma can be plenty of smaller issues performed nicely, and plenty of large issues performed nicely they usually coexist.
Marcin: Nowadays I’m moved in direction of being a supervisor, so I’m principally making an attempt to assist different people who find themselves extra proficient than me to make these issues occur. They’re engaged on actually, actually spectacular options that you already know might need seen already or you will note later this 12 months. It’s all within the… We name it the editor, the traditional Figma. And as for the keyboard, yeah, it’s form of humorous the way it’s haunting me in a manner, as a result of Figma is form of the productiveness app in a manner. And in some methods it’s truly actually old fashioned, if you consider it.
Marcin: It’s in a contemporary context, it has multiplayer on the net, nevertheless it actually has right-click menus and a bunch of the… And once more, it’s a negotiation with nostalgia in a manner. It’s like how a lot of that is good, how a lot of this we have to revisit daily? And the identical with the keyboard, as a result of keyboards are nonetheless the device if you wish to do plenty of issues actually rapidly. It’s form of miraculous how they weren’t constructed to be that device initially, perhaps. Nevertheless it’s nonetheless most likely one of the best connection between your mind and the surface world, is the keyboard. So we’re continuously, “The place can we put these keyboard shortcuts?” And there’s a lot historical past of keyboard shortcuts that it’s a must to negotiate. “What can we do with this modifier key?” Which we continuously run off modifier keys. That’s like an ongoing joke.
Vitaly: Oh, that’s not stunning. Even simply what number of keyboard shortcuts you have already got.
Marcin: And what number of issues. It’s just like the traditional Doug Engelbart factor. It’s simply one of the lovely issues occurs when you have got one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. If you happen to watch anyone use Figma or different energy instruments very well, it’s unimaginable. And but, it’s humorous how Doug Engelbart tried to invent his personal system for the left hand, or in case you’re right-handed for the mouse, which was a key set, a particular system.
Marcin: However we don’t have that. We use the keyboard with the opposite hand, and the keyboard will not be actually designed that nicely to try this, due to the mixture of modifier keys and a mouse. In order that’s at all times… It’s humorous, my job is in plenty of methods, it’s the identical type of historic analysis as my e-book, besides put in a really totally different context. Like Shift + A for auto structure. That’s a shortcut we invented, proper? In a manner for Figma. It didn’t exist, however we have been simply… Initially, we have been fortunate that it was free, as a result of Alt + A is already artwork board, Command + A is already choose all. And you would argue Shift + A is definitely not the right shortcut as a result of shortcuts are usually not supposed to start out with Shift, besides all of us began doing this a couple of years in the past as a result of we run out.
Vitaly: I’d like to be in that assembly the place you’re truly deciding, “Okay, so we have to discover a new shortcut. So that is how we’re going to this.” I’m simply curious, how do you even run that assembly? So let’s discover all of the choices now we have, or it must be related ultimately or the opposite with what we’re making an attempt to do right here.
Marcin: Yeah, it’s humorous. You don’t need to be… It’s arduous. I’m simply going to say it’s actually, actually arduous, as a result of there’s simply so many limitations. And I feel the actually arduous half about keyboard shortcuts or something revolving round motor reminiscence is you could’t actually negotiate it. As soon as a keyboard shortcut places itself in your fingers, it’s actually arduous to get it out of it.
Marcin: There’s this nice analysis I discovered of a very long time in the past, most likely a century in the past, they’d an individual who discovered contact sort, after which he moved on to do different issues together with his life. I feel at this level it was nonetheless attainable to not contact a keyboard for years or many years. So he contact typed for some time on the typewriter, after which for 25 years he did nothing. He had a secretary who typed for him. They usually put him in entrance of the typewriter like 25 years since he final wrote, and he simply typed. It wasn’t as quick as 25 years, nevertheless it was type of miraculous how rapidly he bought again into typing actually, very well. After which they did it once more 25 years later.
Vitaly: Oh, that’s fairly the experiment proper there.
Marcin: Yeah. There was a humorous… They simply discovered this particular person, and since issues simply put in themselves within the motor reminiscence in type of actually lovely methods, in a manner. That’s how we will stroll, that’s how we will chew gum, that’s how we will do all kinds of issues. And that’s how we will sort.
Marcin: For a few of us, to not make it very darkish, however sooner or later in our life, you may neglect who you’re, however you’ll nonetheless have the ability to sort, as a result of that’s a distinct a part of our mind. So if you’re used to Command + S to save lots of, in case you’re used to Command + A to pick out all, in case you used to Command + B to make one thing daring, that’s non-negotiable, kind of. It’s actually arduous to take that shortcut away and put one thing else as a substitute. So it’s very straightforward to simply preserve including shortcut, nevertheless it additionally is difficult as a result of there’s solely so many keys.
Vitaly: Yeah, as a result of it’s flawed.
Marcin: …these slack conversations, and I’ve some tips internally to Figma, nevertheless it’s simply actually arduous. Each time, it’s only a actually lengthy dialog the place you’re feeling such as you can’t win, however it’s a must to.
Vitaly: Yeah, yeah. Effectively, I imply clearly keyboards have been following you for a very long time, and I even heard rumors that you’re engaged on a e-book round that. Began writing again in 2016, if not mistaken. And it’s not simply the e-book, from what I might inform. It’s virtually an epic monumental opus about keyboards in three volumes, lovely slip case, 1,300 images, 42 chapters, 520 full coloration images, 37 Easter eggs, and 4 images of keyboards utilizing Comedian Sans. Effectively, that should have taken fairly a while. And also you most likely are a little bit bit… Possibly you wouldn’t imply that. A bit bit obsessive about keyboards. So perhaps you would inform us a bit extra about how this all got here to be and what ought to we expect within the e-book?
Marcin: Yeah, so it began, like I discussed earlier, I used to be at Medium and I feel Medium workplaces, they used to have rooms named after typewriters. Simply because it’s a publishing firm, it’s form of a cute gimmick. However in addition they had typewriters in these rooms as ornament. And I didn’t care as a lot about keyboards earlier than, however I began taking a look at these typewriters they usually all had QWERTY, however they’d attention-grabbing keys on the periphery they usually all have been a little bit bit totally different. And I began being inquisitive about why. And also you talked about this type of obsession. What was actually attention-grabbing about keyboards for me is that the extra I saved studying about them, the extra there was. There’s this type of fractal for something, let’s say backspace. I begin wanting into backspace. It’s like, “Oh my God.” It’s a complete set of tales simply round this one key.
Marcin: And I discovered over time that not every little thing’s as attention-grabbing, however much more issues are extra attention-grabbing than you assume, generally. I feel you get into this little… You develop this sense of, “Is that this world digging deeper?” And it felt like this. And so I began writing some Medium posts, after which folks had very nice reactions to them. I feel I wrote one in regards to the Turkish typewriter simply because I one way or the other discovered about it. And I bought messages from folks in Turkey saying, “Thanks. No person appreciates this factor that now we have.” After which I wrote one thing else about I feel typography and typewriters, as a result of that’s more and more related. And sooner or later I had this second the place I’m like, “Wait, if I preserve doing that, there’s simply sufficient phrases for a e-book.” There was virtually a numerical method. I multiplied, I used to be like, “Oh, it’s a e-book size.”
Marcin: And naturally the joke’s on me, as a result of it ended up being rather more than I anticipated. Took much more time. However I used to be speaking to Craig Mod, who’s a very good writer and simply this excellent artistic particular person. And I feel sooner or later he informed me, “If you wish to write a e-book, I feel it’s a must to choose a topic that comes again to you even in case you don’t need it, as a result of you have to plenty of vitality. You’ll need plenty of assist. You’ll need one thing that can carry you if you find yourself within the darkest second. And there can be darkish moments.” And I believed, “Oh, the keyboard factor retains coming again to me.” I preserve taking a look at it, I preserve researching it, I preserve writing about it. And that ended up being very, very useful.
Marcin: I feel the remainder of it is rather like, yeah, I type of method it on this type of semi obsessive manner as I do, which perhaps will in the future result in my demise or some kind, as a result of this can be a lot of stuff. Nevertheless it ended up being this… You talked about epic, and perhaps it’s, however I additionally very intentionally need to make it not… How do I say it. Nerdy in all the best methods, or intimidating, however in a great way that makes you need to learn it. As a result of it’s plenty of stuff, nevertheless it’s additionally I feel written, I hope, in a really approachable manner. So you possibly can simply get misplaced in some tales of varied keys or typewriters or trendy mechanical keyboards. I can choose one chapter, you possibly can learn it entrance to again, but additionally there’s one factor I’m happy with.
Marcin: I feel you talked about 1300 images. I feel most of them are full coloration, and it’s additionally simply… You may simply have a look at the e-book. It’s truly humorous. I discovered this one way or the other additionally by giving talks at Smashing convention, different conferences, of the way you inform tales which can be textual and visible on the identical time. There’s all the colleges about what do you place in your slides, don’t learn over slide, do that, don’t try this. And I feel plenty of them are, do no matter works for you, actually.
Marcin: I noticed folks learn from slides and I used to be engrossed. I noticed people who haven’t any slides in any respect, and it was nice. So you discover your manner. However I feel the best way I discovered was simply this wealthy tapestry of visuals, generally exhibiting precisely what I’m speaking about, generally exhibiting one thing that’s parallel, however I don’t even acknowledge it. And I feel it’s truly the e-book in some ways was impressed by Hawaii and different folks give talks. The place you have got your left mind interact with this, your proper mind interact with this, and I hope it truly form of counterintuitively helps you learn the e-book extra. By including images it turns into much less arduous to undergo, as a result of there’s at all times one thing to hold you. These images are additionally very intentionally chosen, not simply in order that they’re fairly, however in addition they partake in telling the story.
Vitaly: And so did you design the e-book then as nicely? As a result of it’s a very lovely design too.
Marcin: Yeah, I did. There’s one other a part of the journey, and I feel the reason of why it took so lengthy is that I initially thought I’m going to have it printed, like many others do. And I truly thought, I don’t need to self-publish it as a result of actually, I believed that’s only for losers. It’s like for individuals who can’t get a contract or can’t get an agent. And I form of went 180 over the primary few years the place I talked to many individuals they usually stated, “Self-publishing is definitely actually attention-grabbing, in a manner you could make this e-book really feel precisely like what you need.” And there’s no disgrace in that anymore. I imply, there are dangerous self-published books, however there are additionally dangerous printed. The entire thing grew to become rather more flatter and rather more truly difficult. Kickstarter made it attainable for folks to simply make the e-book how they needed. I made a decision to do it that manner. To do it by myself, and Kickstarter truly coming quickly in February. So if that works out, I feel it’s going to be-
Vitaly: Effectively, it seems a way of lovely. I imply, the second I noticed it, I needed to swipe by all the photographs and zoom in and zoom out to see every little thing. So it’s actually lovely.
Marcin: Thanks.
Vitaly: I’m very, very excited to see it coming to fruition. That’s nice. Effectively, truly, as a result of in that analysis, working and dealing on that e-book and taking a look at all these keyboards, I actually should ask at this level, what was truly essentially the most exceptional typewriter or keyboard? I feel perhaps keyboard can be extra acceptable, that you’ve got found. Like essentially the most uncommon factor that you’ve got seen.
Marcin: So yeah, it’s loads, proper? It’s actually arduous to decide on this. I truly am within the course of of creating this e-book. I amassed this assortment of most likely 150 unusual keyboards in there. The emphasis being unusual, as a result of there’s plenty of unusual stuff, and I really like that. And plenty of it’s within the e-book, photographed. However I feel I’m truly going to go the opposite manner, which is, so in case you have a look at the historical past of keyboards, I nominated 5 keyboards as being the necessary keyboards. Kind of just like the milestones. The primary one is the primary QWERTY typewriter. Then there’s the Underwood No. 5, which is the primary hit. First typewriter hit. Kind of just like the iPhone of its day. Then there’s this electrical, which is a lovely form of electrical typewriter with a font ball and simply reinvention of the typewriter. Then there’s the Mannequin M, no shock right here. The clicky keyboard from mid-eighties.
Marcin: After which there’s the iPhone. I feel the iPhone simply modified a lot how we take into consideration keyboards. And so these 5 keyboards have centerfold within the e-book, they’re handled very, very nicely. However I added another, simply personally. I added another to that record, simply one thing that basically excited me. Selectric, which was this electrical typewriter got here out in, I feel 1961, very early sixties. They usually saved bettering it. And in 1973, I feel, they launched correcting Selectric II. Which was like v3 of this Selectric. And I truly rented it, as a result of I used to be eager about it. And it’s actually attention-grabbing, as a result of it’s nonetheless a typewriter. You plug it to the wall, there’s no electronics there in any respect, and but it does… Initially, it feels wonderful. There have been folks saying, “Oh, Selectric was one of the best typewriter or one of the best keyboard I ever typed on.” And I used to be similar to, “No matter.” You simply occurred to be a teen on the time, and also you simply discovered to find it irresistible, as a result of all of us love every little thing that occurred after we have been youngsters, proper?
Vitaly: We additionally affiliate form of our emotions, no matter we skilled on the time with the system, though it could be only a system.
Marcin: Yeah, it’s traditional, proper? I’m not going to disclaim it. After which blah, no matter, nostalgia. After which I talked to him, I used to be like, “Oh my God, that is truly a very nice feeling typewriter, proper? It’s a typewriter keyboard that looks like a pc keyboard. Which is form of exceptional, even making that occur. Nevertheless it additionally has plenty of these items that you’d assume solely computer systems might have. So it has a little bit buffer while you press two keys. It remembers the second, so you possibly can overlap your strokes. It has clearly the font ball the place it might exchange fonts simply and kind. And it has a bunch of different issues together with, and that is what blew my thoughts, it has a functioning backspace. If you happen to make a mistake, you possibly can erase it from paper, which looks as if one thing that shouldn’t be attainable, as a result of how do you erase it from paper, proper?
Marcin: It’s on paper. You may cowl it up. No, they really did this actually difficult. It was chemistry. They made this very difficult. It’s not even ink, I feel movie the place it sticks to paper type of not very eagerly, so you possibly can take away it. And it had this entire little particular backspace key. That’s why it’s referred to as correcting Selectric, that in case you do it rapidly sufficient, you possibly can take away it. And it’s just about gone from paper, particularly in case you sort over it. It’s clearly a useless finish. Quickly after that, computer systems took over and keyboards went in a really totally different manner. And with computer systems, you don’t have to fret in regards to the backspace. It’s virtually the alternative. The whole lot disappears in case you’re not paying consideration. So backspace is sort of the simplest key to make. However this correcting Selectric device was simply… My mouth was open the entire time I used to be utilizing these. Like, “How is that this attainable?”
Vitaly: Yeah, that may be very thrilling. I by no means considered this being even attainable or ever carried out. That’s uncommon. Now, do you assume that on your work you would be imagining truly typing on that form of typewriter after which it’s form of ultimately plugged into your laptop? Or will it’s only a misuse of know-how?
Marcin: No, no. That’s truly one other great thing about the Selectric is that the best way it was constructed internally, and in case you open… It’s an extremely complicated system, proper? It’s so dense. Mainly again within the day, the upkeep of IBM Selectric typewriters was a profession. They have been each so widespread and so difficult in comparison with common typewriters that you would actually spend your whole life fixing them in case you needed, and many individuals did.
Marcin: However one of many different issues that I didn’t even point out is that Selectric inside, due to how the keys should be related to the ball that rotates. By the best way, if anyone’s listening, search for Selectric ball, sluggish movement on YouTube, and it’s similar to that alone is a marvel of know-how. However the best way they join it, it’s truly by binary code. So folks realized in a short time they might repurpose this typewriter to be a terminal.
Marcin: Like again when show screens have been extremely costly, lots of people used Selectrics to interface with their computer systems, since you might sort, you possibly can learn, it’s a command line successfully. After which even IBM realized this, they usually launched what they referred to as Selectric IO, which was just a bit bit extra ready laptop terminal. So on high of every little thing that I stated, it additionally grew to become this interface. It’s type of like lacking hyperlink, not solely typewriter keyboards to mechanical keyboards, but additionally simply type of between typewriters and computer systems in a manner. It’s type of an occasion diagram of the universe, Selectric served each side. I at all times beloved these type of transitional merchandise, proper?
Vitaly: Yeah, that’s unimaginable. However I imply, I feel you have got very sturdy opinions additionally in regards to the butterfly keyboard. Then we had on Mac for some time, the problems we had there. And I do should ask, I actually should ask. So what sort of keyboard do you utilize for work? It could actually’t be an everyday one, can it?
Marcin: Effectively, okay, I’m taking a look at it now. So clearly I care about keyboards, however I’m not practically as obsessed as lots of people about mechanical keyboards. Individuals who put keyboards collectively, lube their switches. I’ve by no means went that far, however a few of these persons are within the e-book. Among the tales. I’ve, let me see. And I feel the best way I discuss it might let you know what’s necessary to me. So I’ve a HEXgears Gemini. Which I needed to search for, as a result of I truly forgot. Nevertheless it’s a TKL. So it doesn’t have a numpad, as a result of I don’t use it. It’s a comparatively trendy keyboard. It has lights, however I don’t use these lights. What’s necessary to me is that I’ve this clean kick ups. Simply, I don’t know, it makes me really feel cool.
Marcin: But in addition within the form of outdated terminal kick ups from the seventies. I feel it’s referred to as SA or SAP, for individuals who know the jargon. And that was necessary to me as a result of it’s type of partly what I discovered in my analysis for the e-book. And I similar to the form, and it type of feels, once more, like a little bit bit from the previous, little bit from the longer term form of state of affairs.
I don’t know what change… Individuals are going to cancel me for this. I don’t keep in mind what the switches are, however they’re customized change. Effectively, not widespread, they’re not Cherry, they’re one thing, they’re yellow. I can let you know that. Possibly a number of the listeners can chime in. I bought them as a result of they’re quieter. They’re linear they usually’re quieter for Zoom, however I additionally like the best way they really feel. So it was partly practical and partly necessity.
Vitaly: Effectively, Marcin, that is far more particular of a solution than I used to be anticipating, however that’s okay. However one factor that you just haven’t answered but, and that’s one thing I do should ask as nicely, is you will need to have tried at work keyboard or keyboard structure. Or perhaps by any probability you have got a Turkish F keyboard, I don’t know, or any of the… I don’t even know pronounce them. JCUKEN and post-mortem or something of that sort, or are you simply utilizing an everyday QWERTY one?
Marcin: So once more, this could be disappointing for folks. I simply use QWERTY. I truly don’t contact sort very nicely. Right here’s the enjoyable factor. I contact sort higher with my left hand than with my proper hand. I simply watched myself, I recorded myself, as a result of I used to be curious. It simply occurred. I simply occurred to be taught that manner. And that’s form of like a narrative of QWERTY. I’ve a Dvorak typewriter someplace. I’ve a Turkish typewriter. I undoubtedly sort on a bunch of these layouts as analysis. As a result of it’s attention-grabbing, and it’s attention-grabbing to look at your fingers do all of those totally different motions. However I feel the rationale why I take advantage of QWERTY, is I feel the rationale lots of people use QWERTY, which is it’s simply form of adequate.
Marcin: I used to be fortunate that I by no means had any points with my wrists or forearms or what some folks name RSI, although it’s not a correct time period. And so I by no means wanted to sort loads. I by no means wanted to sort very, very quick. And so I simply stopped sooner or later studying, and I simply typed the best way I sort. And I feel that’s true for many individuals.
Vitaly: Yeah, after all.
Marcin: QWERTY could also be disappointing to many individuals, as a result of we type of standardized on a very dangerous factor. However I’d argue it’s not that dangerous, in a manner. It was undoubtedly intentional, that we all know. It’s common, which we can’t… We now have to respect that. The truth that I can use this QWERTY keyboard and kind in Chinese language or Japanese or many different layouts, even in case you change it to AZERTY or Turkish. It’s simply the identical bodily structure. I feel there’s one thing that really assist us to some extent. And in case you care about Dvorak and it’s helpful for you, or lots of these extra trendy layouts, or if it’s a must to, as a result of your fingers protest at QWERTY, like you possibly can. That’s the great thing about the form of laptop keyboards from the eighties and onward, you could change it. You now not should… Dvorak needed to put it in a typewriter and promote it, and it was simply an enormous endeavor. Dvorak the particular person. August Dvorak.
Marcin: And that was arduous at that time, within the thirties. Attempt to persuade the typewriter producers to launch a complete new line of typewriters along with your factor, although you stated you have got scientific proof that it’s higher. And I don’t assume that’s truly true, however immediately everyone… And folks do give you their very own layouts. I like plenty of that. However I additionally assume, for instance, the form of market failure of QWERTY has nothing… Sorry, of Dvorak. QWERTY didn’t fail in any respect. QWERTY keeps-
Vitaly: I feel QWERTY is, from what I can inform, from what I’ve heard lately, it’s fairly profitable.
Marcin: Yeah, I imply, that’s form of just like the humorous factor. You may seize the man who places collectively the primary QWERTY, proper? Christopher Latham Sholes. Nearly precisely 150 years in the past, they launched the primary typewriter with QWERTY, and you would put him in entrance of the fashionable laptop and he would know what to do. It’s the identical factor. It’s form of like, you would see it as very disappointing, nevertheless it’s additionally form of an attention-grabbing success story.
Marcin: However I feel the failure of Dvorak, or not less than the mass adoption of Dvorak and different layouts has actually nothing to do with the structure itself. Folks like Dvorak didn’t actually perhaps need to care about, which is advertising and marketing or storytelling or interested by transitions. Once more, one thing like with Figma, how do you transition from one keyboard shortcut to the opposite one? It’s an enormous endeavor, and it takes years. So think about that fifty years after QWERTY was invented. That was already very, very arduous. And I feel these are the issues that additionally matter, and never simply the type of scientific benefit that’s proved by math of a sure structure, which by the best way, can be actually, actually arduous to do, and I don’t assume we all know how to try this.
Vitaly: Yeah. That’s proper. Effectively, as we’re wrapping up right here, I do should ask one necessary query, after all. Now, immediately we’ve been studying a little bit bit about keyboards, and we’ll now know that even Marcin is utilizing QWERTY, which is I feel completely cool and all. However I’ve been questioning additionally, what have you ever been studying about recently, Marcin? What retains you awake at evening? Are there any specific matters the place you’re diving in, or perhaps there may be one specific keyboard that you just’re dreaming about seeing or typing on in the future? Do you have got this magical factor that you just desperately need to see or contact in the future?
Marcin: That’s an awesome query. So to reply so as, I’m studying plenty of issues nonetheless for the e-book. I used to be studying 3JS for the web site. I’m studying loads about printing and advertising and marketing now. Undecided that’s tremendous attention-grabbing. The one factor that was arduous about writing the e-book, and I feel perhaps each historian has that, is that there are the artifacts, proper? I truly typed on the primary QWERTY typewriter for a really transient second, and it was actually cool. It was form of magical, notably that it was simply in a museum, and no person informed me it was that, I simply realized it was that. It was an awesome discovery. I want I had a time machine to speak about a few of these folks and their selections. Individuals who made the primary typewriter, individuals who made the Underwood No. 5, individuals who labored on the Selectric, as a result of it looks like there are not any weblog posts, there are not any talks as a lot. There are some papers, not very many. There are some patterns, however they’re not very helpful.
Marcin: I simply need a few of these folks on Twitter speaking about their course of. I do know that’s not going to occur, and I feel a part of my e-book is making an attempt to faux this might occur, inform their tales for them. However I actually want I might simply chat over drinks or one thing with a few of these folks. And if you wish to inform me one thing that’s utterly… It seems writing a e-book is simply all consuming. It’s simply takes over your life, whether or not you need it or not. So for individuals who are contemplating it, I’d suggest it, however beware. However I’ve been actually impressed. There’s this particular person on YouTube referred to as Adam Neely, who I feel is knowledgeable musician, and it’s only a very totally different world. Clearly keyboards and music, sure. However I don’t have a look at it this.
Marcin: He’s this actually good storyteller round this… It’s form of what I feel I’d need to be for my area, which is go nerdy on issues in approachable methods, and inform these tales about like, why do musicians want in ear displays, which I’d by no means actually considered. And it’s loads about propagation sound and delays and precisely the form of stuff you consider as a designer. Or what’s the distinction between C Sharp and B. Which apparently there may be, or simply popular culture stuff. So it’s Adam Neely, it’s actually, very well performed. He’s an awesome storyteller. And I don’t know a lot about music, however I’m stunned how typically… It’s like watching a TV present. Generally it goes over my head, nevertheless it’s like at all times…. You’re watching a professional inform a very good story, and it’s at all times entertaining.
Vitaly: Oh, that’s very cool. I’d like to look that up. As a result of I didn’t know why artists truly hassle to plug in one thing into the ear. They most likely have a reasonably good sound high quality anyway. However now I do know.
Effectively, in case you, pricey listener wish to hear extra from Marcin, you could find him on Twitter the place he’s @ M W I C H A R Y, which is mwichary. Additionally on his homepage, Aresluna. I do should ask you, Marcin, at this level, Aresluna, I couldn’t discover the connection wherever between you and Aresluna. What’s the connection? The place is the lacking hyperlink right here?
Marcin: Oh, yeah. So it’s truly all related to the issues we talked about. How do I inform this story rapidly? My favourite author of all time is Stanisław Lem, the Polish author who did plenty of sci-fi. And I feel simply impressed me to put in writing myself, and impressed me to consider language in rather more type of artistic and malleable and enjoyable methods, as a result of he had a lot enjoyable with language. And a part of that was, so I’m studying this e-book and there’s this one… It’s a future sci-fi form of factor. And one ship talks to the opposite ship, they usually say, “Titan for Aresluna reporting to the star base or one thing.” And it’s not clarify what it means. It’s simply the phrase Aresluna. And so what Lem was doing was… Turned out to be phrase constructing. He didn’t clarify one thing, however in case you have a look at these phrases, it’s like Ares is Mars, Luna is Moon.
Marcin: So you possibly can in a short time get, oh, they’re flying between the Mars and Moon so typically that they only have shortcut, they’ve jargon for that. So on this one world, you possibly can simply set up this large a part of story constructing. So I simply form of like that. I just like the sound of it. And I additionally like that Mars will not be like Moon in any respect. He additionally wrote about that, and it’s enjoyable. I don’t know, it was simply this enjoyable juxtaposition and… I don’t know, it felt form of necessary to me to acknowledge that. And in case you haven’t learn science of Lem, he’s wonderful. You need to try this.
Vitaly: Yeah. Effectively, fortuitously you don’t should go to Mars or to Moon so as to examine Marcin, and likewise learn his upcoming e-book. It’s also possible to discover all of the high-quality particulars, clearly on Aresluna, which is aresluna.org. We’re additionally going to hyperlink to it within the notes, and you can even be notified in regards to the e-book updates. And it’s actually, actually lovely and actually unimaginable and extremely really helpful, and the title is unbelievable, shifthappens.web site. Which I feel is a very, actually cool identify for a e-book about keyboards. Effectively, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us immediately, Marcin. Do you have got any parting phrases of knowledge for people who find themselves going to take heed to us perhaps 20 years from now, questioning why have been they speaking about keyboards? “We don’t even have keyboards anymore. We simply converse to computer systems now.”
Marcin: Oh yeah, we’ll have keyboards. There’ll nonetheless be QWERTY round.
Vitaly: So are you positive we’re going to have keyboards?
Marcin: Yeah.
Vitaly: QWERTY keyboards? So will it’s like, I don’t know, contact slash, trackpad slash, no matter keyboard?
Marcin: No, there can be extra stuff, after all. There can be voice, there can be perhaps some neural connections. However I feel keyboards can be with us for some time, as a result of they’re simply actually good at what they do. For higher or worse, QWERTY can be with us for a similar period of time, I’m fairly positive.
Vitaly: So in different phrases, you’re saying that your e-book might be going to remain updated for the subsequent 150 years.
Marcin: Hopefully as perhaps historic artifact, perhaps not. Yeah, it’s humorous, I simply realized that we by no means talked about the title of the e-book, which is a advertising and marketing fake pas. Shift Occurs. Yeah, purchase my e-book or do it on Kickstarter. However I’m joking. I imply, you don’t should. I’d admire it. I feel it’s a enjoyable e-book. I don’t need to pitch it too arduous, however assume the “parting phrases of knowledge,” is that this entire factor occurred as a result of I simply seemed on the on a regular basis object that I believed is boring, and I discovered it wasn’t boring.
Marcin: It actually was not boring in any respect. So I suppose I’m curious for everyone who’s listening, are there different issues in your life which can be price wanting deeper into, and trying out, and type of poking at and seeing what occurs? As a result of I feel the journey of the e-book, we didn’t even discuss what number of actually attention-grabbing folks I bought to be taught from and to interview and to speak about. And folks for whom keyboards imply a lot greater than they ever did or will for me. And so I feel that can be my suggestion, in case you go deep in one thing and see the place it takes you.
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