![Smashing Podcast Episode 55 With Tejas Kumar: Is Know-how Making Us Redundant?](https://v3n6x2i7.rocketcdn.me/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/smashing-podcast-episode-55-BFND6R.png)
On this episode, we ask whether or not know-how is making us redundant; will all of us quickly get replaced with AI? Vitaly Friedman talks to Tejas Kumar to seek out out.
Present Notes
Stéphanie Walter on LinkedIn and Twitter
Stéphanie’s homepage
Weekly Replace
Closed Captions And Subtitles UX written by Vitaly Friedman
Prime Entrance-Finish Instruments Of 2022 written by Louis Lazaris
Optimizing The Picture Factor LCP written by Eloïse Martin
Code Documentation, Streamlined written by Atila Fassina
A Information To Designing For Introverts written by Pratik Joglekar
Transcript
Vitaly Friedman: He has been writing code for the reason that age of eight and nonetheless continues to take action right now. He’s a DevRel chief, YouTuber, advisor, mentor, influencer, and has very, very sturdy opinions about just about all the things.
Beforehand, he’s labored with G2L, Vercel, Spotify and so on choosing up issues alongside the way in which, typically as a developer and typically as a supervisor.
Vitaly: Now he lives in Berlin, Germany, however more often than not travels the world equipping and inspiring builders to do their greatest work, aiming to make the world a greater place for high quality software program. Past that, he’s extraordinarily sort, passionate, pleasant, and good. And never {that a} passes by that him sharing his opinions once more on all the things Tailwind, JavaScript and other people on Twitter.
Vitaly: Now we all know he’s a fantastic product engineer and a sort human being, however do you know that he can simply sort sooner than 100 phrases per minute when writing code with out a single mistake, particularly if it’s a life coding session in entrance of 1000’s of builders? My smashing pals, please welcome Tejas Kumar. Howdy, Tejas. How are you doing right now?
Tejas: What’s up? I’m doing good. I’m smashing. I’m smashing issues as we converse. I’m additionally doing smashing.
Vitaly: Oh, effectively—
Tejas: Smashing sufficient.
Vitaly: You at all times look smashing. All the time. I at all times really feel smashing once I see you being smashing not directly or the opposite.
Tejas: Sure, that’s what my grandpa at all times used to say. Smash them with kindness.
Vitaly: Oh, actually? Wow. That is simply the right starting of the interview. Now it’s so good to have you ever right here. I bear in mind all the things from our unusual bus journeys to our walks in someplace between Croatia and Germany, and what not, it’s at all times so, I don’t know. It’s a lot enjoyable to be round since you at all times have, once more, opinions about issues.
Tejas: Sure.
Vitaly: You at all times categorical them with a really sturdy kindness. Why is that, Tejas? The place is it coming from?
Tejas: Yeah, it comes from rather a lot. So once I do talks and issues at conferences, lots of people inform me… they arrive to me after and so they’re like, “Hey, that was so real. I felt like that was very real.”
And it comes from that. I’m a robust believer in talking reality in love or kindly, and I assume that’s the place it comes from. I do have sturdy opinions about issues, proper, however I really feel like they’ve to return underneath an umbrella of kindness and respect. In any other case, no one desires to hearken to some indignant individual with sturdy opinions who’s not pleasant.
Vitaly: Effectively, you don’t know. I imply, I’m very joyful to listen to possibly not indignant folks, however like at any time when somebody has a really sturdy opinion, I’m completely superb with that. Really, there’s Lex Friedman, who’s a podcaster. He’s doing all these movies with folks on YouTube such as you do as effectively. We’ll speak about it in a second. However he had simply posted lately one factor. He applauded to all of the people who find themselves attentive sufficient to hearken to different folks’s opinions and their arguments and be keen to vary their minds.
Tejas: Yeah.
Vitaly: So I feel that when you’ve got a really sturdy opinion about issues, so long as you might be keen and open minded to vary your thoughts primarily based on the arguments that come your approach, proper? I feel that is superb for me. That is really an important ability to have.
Tejas: Sure. Sure. I feel the underlying ability there’s essential considering and being open and receptive. 100%. I used to be simply watching the Welcome to Chippendales. I don’t know when you’ve heard of this present, proper?
Vitaly: Not but, no.
Tejas: It’s a fantastic present. I can suggest it. And in that present you watch the founding father of Chippendales repeatedly screw up his firm and go into chapter 11. And the frequent thread in his errors is that he simply has loads of this entrenched, shut minded pridefulness the place he refuses to have his thoughts modified regardless of his sturdy opinions.
So I agree with you. I feel that’s one thing I attempt. I work arduous at and attempt to preserve, and so I respect that you simply referred to as it out right here on this dialog.
Vitaly: Yeah, positive. Effectively, the rationale why I needed to have you ever on the present as effectively, as a result of you’ve gotten all these unbelievable experiences and tales you’ll be able to share, proper? And also you are also very public about issues which can be vital to you and also you’re not afraid of sturdy phrases as effectively by doing so. And so possibly only for all people to be sort of following your story to know who you might be and what you’re coming from and so forth, possibly you may simply share a bit little bit of perception about how did you find yourself on this entrance finish insanity? The place is it coming from?
Did you get up at some point whenever you had been eight and thought, “That is it. I went to put in writing HTML, CSS, JavaScript for dwelling now for the remainder of my life.”
Tejas: After I was eight years previous, react was really a factor. I’m joking. It wasn’t.
Vitaly: Oh, who is aware of? Who is aware of?
Tejas: Yeah. No, however yeah, no, I used to be born with a illness that was actually limiting and there’s loads of issues I couldn’t do. I had a ton of bodily limitations. I made an entire 48 minute YouTube video about it, which you’ll watch when you’re extra simply or we might speak about it right here. I don’t actually care. However with the restrictions I had, I couldn’t go to highschool on daily basis. I couldn’t carry a backpack. I couldn’t open doorways. I couldn’t stroll upstairs. I couldn’t do loads of issues. The one factor I might do was take my fingers and kind on keyboards with them. And fortunately my household was comparatively low revenue on the time. I grew up fairly poor, however we had simply sufficient privilege to the place we had a pc and a keyboard. And since this was the one factor I might do in some ways I really feel like coding discovered me. And I used to be drawn to, I’ve a YouTube video coming about this popping out about this on Thursday, I used to be drawn to the fast suggestions loop of JavaScript the place you simply write a bit little bit of code in your browsers console and it executes. And I used to be like, whoa. And it’s that sort of whoa, that sort of I discovered once I was eight simply sort of enjoying with browsers and code. And it’s the identical whoa that I chased right now.
Vitaly: That’s attention-grabbing. So would you say that this was particularly then JavaScript that sort of spoke to you, or would you say that this simply, if Flash was nonetheless a factor it’d nonetheless be operating round constructing Flash web sites?
Tejas: That’s a wonderful query. No, it’s undoubtedly not JavaScript in any respect. It was, effectively, it began with Photoshop, so I used to be-
Vitaly: Photoshop. What’s Photoshop, Tejas?
Tejas: Yeah, I do know, proper? These days with Sigma and stuff, Photoshop’s a bit misplaced, however once I was younger, Photoshop was the design device. It wasn’t only for picture modifying and manipulation, it was for at the least I used it for creating stuff as a result of Vector wasn’t so beneficial on the time. And so once I was youthful, Vitaly, we had Macro S Issue.
Vitaly: Even youthful.
Tejas: Yeah?
Vitaly: Even youthful.
Tejas: No, no, not even youthful. After I was youthful than I’m now. After I was sort of simply stepping into it, Mac OS Aqua, the design precept aqua factor, was very in vogue and all people was attempting to design these shiny balls.
Vitaly: I bear in mind them vividly, yeah, yeah. I bear in mind.
Tejas: Yeah. The shiny balls. And so I did tutorials on Photoshop. I used to be like, I need to make a very shiny ball. After which from there I moved to Tux. They made these penguins with gloss results, and that’s the place I began and I used to be like, wow, that is so stunning. After which I discovered the slicing device the place I might design one thing and make it html, and I used to be like, whoa. After which I used to be like, okay, that is cool, however how do I make it interactive? After which I discovered JavaScript. So the draw was actually creating stuff with none bodily injury to myself and with none monetary requirement. I used to be capable of create stuff with none boundaries to entry aside from the crappy previous keyboard and laptop we had. In order that was it.
Vitaly: Yeah, the magic factor for me was actually this second once I realized that I can really make it out there to all people else. That was that magic factor. I imply, I bear in mind FTPing all the way in which, and-
Tejas: Sure.
Vitaly: I imply there have been loads of free servers on the market with all of the sort of promoting and all of that. And I used to be simply, wow, there are 12 individuals who visited my web site within the final three months. It was unbelievable. That was simply actually thoughts altering, like thoughts blowing, life altering for me. Yeah, that’s actually unbelievable. And if I have a look at the business now, the business is so mature. There are such a lot of unbelievable issues. Just like the factor that we’re constructing on the web, on the internet, it’s simply unbelievable. It’s simply the extent of software program engineering and all.
Tejas: Yeah however , Vitaly, I really feel a bit unhappy that it’s so mature now that it’s … once I was youthful, not youthful than once I began …
Vitaly: I assumed that, yeah.
Tejas: As I used to be rising, I’ll put it this manner, I used to be typically scared of being a mature grownup as a result of once I was youthful and rebellious, being mature was being boring for me. I used to be like, oh, I’ve to placed on a swimsuit and tie and sort of be bored. Like my childlike surprise was misplaced in my definition of maturity a few years in the past. And I liken that to right now.
You say the online is mature and I agree with you. It sort of makes me unhappy as a result of I really feel like on this maturity we’ve misplaced loads of the superior whimsy that we used to have. I don’t know when you bear in mind these Geo cities, angel fireplace sort of internet sites with underneath development banner and like all of, ?
Vitaly: I imply, you’ll be able to nonetheless have them on the internet. It’s simply not many individuals do.
Tejas: Proper. But it surely’s as a result of it’s not cool anymore. And I need to convey that again. I bear in mind the dancing child for no … like each web site simply had a dancing child and a cursor that was a clock that will observe your cursor. In any case, so all of this I really feel like we’ve misplaced, and I’d wish to see extra of that. Anyway, sorry. Just a bit rant.
Vitaly: No, I feel that’s really, in some ways, it’s like we’re at all times transferring in circles. I’ve a really sturdy feeling that in some ways once I have a look at e-commerce web sites, you most likely don’t need to have it there essentially until it is, I don’t know. Possibly it’s a model with a persona and issues like that. That is perhaps okay. However I do really feel like we’re a bit bit too used to getting issues accomplished in a sure approach. And I imply, fairly often we take into consideration now we have to be standard. We have to observe specific pointers and guidelines. And we most likely ought to if you wish to be standard and we need to observe the foundations and need issues to be acquainted to everybody.
However I imply, there’s additionally this notion of peculiar folks, and I’m not speaking about delight essentially, however simply stunning them. Simply making them assume a bit bit about the place they’re and what they’re doing. I imply, if I have a look at your web site, effectively each time I come to the positioning for some cause I see a barely totally different and typically barely unusual picture of your self. Typically in very totally different outfits.
Tejas: Sure.
Vitaly: So is that the whimsical that you’re sort of mentioning there? Talking about?
Tejas: Yeah, yeah. When you drag your cursor, when you transfer your cursor round, you simply cycle by a bunch of random pictures of me. It’s open supply. So I’ve misplaced management of … so folks will add footage of me dressed as a flower, footage of some muscular man.
Vitaly: Look incredible as a flower, if I’ll say.
Tejas: So. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, they’ll do some muscular man shirtless with simply my face photoshopped on him. They’ll do every kind of bizarre issues.
This isn’t me, that is the neighborhood who really feel the necessity to add bizarre footage of me on my web site. But it surely’s precisely the whimsy I’m speaking about. And as you drag your cursor throughout, you’ll see a few of these. And I like that. And I really feel like, to your level, smashing does the right stability of this with the cats. The cats should not … like when you’re speaking about content material and nice content material, nice ideas, nice, no matter smashing does, the cats are actually non-essential. However I really feel like they’re important as a result of they create that superior whimsy. So I like that y’all try this as effectively. I feel it’s a lot wanted.
Vitaly: Yeah. So I feel we do like cats. I imply it’s been fairly a journey with all of the cats. I imply, I don’t even know the place they’ve been and haven’t been at this level, proper?
Tejas: Yeah.
Vitaly: But additionally talking about you, the place you’ve gotten been and the place you haven’t been but. I imply you’ve been engaged on so many various actually cool firms. I imply, I have a look at Vercel, Spotify, Xata lately, proper?
Possibly, I don’t know when you might share some insights about what did you study from every of these issues? Possibly there was some actually attention-grabbing insights that you simply want you’d identified earlier in your profession.
Tejas: Yeah, undoubtedly. I used to be simply speaking to my good good friend Fabian. I simply had lunch with him and he talked about he’s studying this e-book by an ex-Google engineer referred to as Resolve for Completely happy. Nice e-book. And in that e-book he talks about how actually nothing is absolutely good or dangerous or joyful or unhappy. It’s simply what’s our notion of it. And I really feel this manner in regards to the jobs that I’ve left as a result of there’s classes in there from every of them. Most lately from Zeta, I discovered the, really from Zeta and G2I, each of those firms mixed, I’ve discovered the worth and significance of urgency, possession and autonomy. I feel that’s actually vital.
Tejas: In truth, there’s an previous Steve Jobs interview when he was a lot youthful. He had hair and was alive, however he stated folks have a tendency to go away after they really feel like they will’t have concepts. And I noticed that, I noticed it executed very, very effectively at G2I the place I used to be reporting to the CTO. And he was similar to, he would speak to me on Monday and ask me what my plan is. We’d align and he’d be like, “Superior, make it occur. Goodbye. Come to me when you want something, however I belief you.”
And this phrase, “I belief you.” I discovered how highly effective that may be ready of management. After which I might proceed to have a number of administration management roles there, at the same time as director of developer relations at Zeta. And that’s one thing I carried with me from G2I was this, “I belief you. Make it occur.” So I might speak to my staff on Monday. We’d sort of plan for the week after which by Friday, effectively on Monday I might inform them, I might say, “See you Friday. Come to me when you want something, however I belief you.” After which we’d go to Friday the place we might have simply an finish of week, what did we do, how will we really feel test in. And this was wonderful. We got here up with this very nice rhythm that facilitated this sort of urgency and possession with out stress, urgency with out stress. It was actually, very nice.
Vitaly: I imply, one factor that I seen lately is that many firms attempt to be very cautious about how, on the one hand, to provide folks this type of autonomy to only belief them and do the work. As a result of once more, when you concentrate on micromanagement, it’s such a foul sort of actually dangerous sample to make use of. And I imply there are most likely loads of firms which can be nonetheless my micromanaging on some degree. However I feel there’s this manner of crystallizing, I assume not directly, these issues that actually work and issues that don’t work.
One factor that I noticed firms had been utilizing, and it really works appears to be working rather well. This concept of, possibly you’ve heard about this as effectively, is the thought as a handbook for me.
Vitaly: Which means, for instance, the place you say, okay, each single particular person contributor or anyone, supervisor. It doesn’t matter actually. Each single one who is working within the firm, you higher go forward and attempt to put together a bit Google Doc on Notion doc or something like that the place you describe how do you’re employed comfortably, what’s vital to you, like your calendar, your preferences, when do you’re employed greatest? So is it okay to disturb you within the morning? Is it higher to disturb you barely later relating to an pressing assembly or issues like that. And so all people’s inspired to create this so long as it may be a mural board or mural board or something like that. And so all people’s inspired then to place the hyperlink to it of their Slack profile. And so all people is aware of, okay, I don’t know who that individual is. And particularly in a giant company, a giant firm, now we have possibly tens of 1000’s of individuals working.
Vitaly: It is perhaps very, very snug to have the ability to say, okay, I would like to succeed in out to that individual, that place from the staff, however I don’t need to come throughout as in sort of pushing my concepts or no matter I need by their agenda not directly the opposite disrupting them. However I needed to be extra respectful. In order that was actually magical once I noticed that and I assumed, wow, I actually respect it, particularly within the distant first atmosphere that the place we’re working.
Tejas: We did that at G2I as effectively. We had social contracts, they had been referred to as. These paperwork. And I bear in mind them working actually, rather well.
Vitaly: Would you say that in your perspective would you… now I assume that you’re wanting, I don’t know, both possibly constructing one thing by yourself, possibly sort wanting what’s round and all. Is it vital for you that you simply’re working distant first, distant solely, or would you say that’s not an issue for me to go to the workplace on daily basis?
Tejas: Yeah, it relies upon. It actually will depend on quite a lot of elements. I might truthfully make the workplace factor work if the opposite elements had been acceptable. However, yeah, no, I don’t assume distant’s a tough line for me.
I used to be, once more, to quote my good friend Fabian. I requested him the identical query. I stated, “Do you favor distant or onsite?” And his response was a 3rd choice, which he tends to assume outdoors the field. He’s like, effectively, truthfully, I choose a selection. With the ability to do a distant for a season after which onsite for a season. Like the selection is the magic to him. And I sort of agree with that. However I might do workplace if it’s required for positive.
Vitaly: But additionally wanting typically on the IT business, I do know with a giant eye and a giant T, I assume at this level there’s loads of stuff happening and many individuals are involved layoffs, and there isn’t a way of uncertainty about the place we’re going with … Is it nonetheless a factor to be a undertaking engineer? Is it a superb factor to be a undertaking engineer? I’m fairly positive it’s, proper? However the place do you see all of this sort of being right now? Is it only a pure approach of the financial system just isn’t in a fine condition, so positive there are layoffs after a season of hiring, or do you see this sort of changing into a development the place now we have to watch out and cautious about not dropping our jobs for AI by any means? What’s the tackle this?
Tejas: Yeah, my tackle that is it’s regular. I really feel like have a look at the GDP curve of any nation of any 12 months and also you’ll see is dips recessions are regular and predictable and so they occur. And when recessions occur, layoffs occur. I really feel like a recession is an indication of financial normalcy. If it lasts very lengthy, then it’s a melancholy. That’s an enormous drawback. However I really feel prefer it’s anticipated. I really feel like layoffs sadly have their time and place. They’re not good. They have an effect on households. I imply, I had the privilege of quitting, however I additionally really feel the squeeze of unemployment. So I don’t assume they’re good. However I feel it occurs. I don’t assume the roles shall be taken by machines but as a result of machines and AI is being designed now to sort of be a helper.
Tejas: So I really feel prefer it’ll assist us. However I do assume you give chat GPT, entry to the web, which it doesn’t have, after which it will get further superpowers and will get extra threatening. However I really feel like there’s human beings with a vested curiosity in preserving human beings with jobs. So I’m not so positive the AI will take our jobs, however the state of the business now I feel is definitely fairly cool, Vitaly, as a result of whenever you and I began and I imply you most likely began approach earlier than me, so I’ll simply say once I began. I’m not calling you previous. I’m simply calling you expertise.
Vitaly: That’s okay. That’s okay. We’re all pals right here.
Tejas: No, however once I began, there was no entrance finish and backend. There was webmaster. There was an online dev and it was the one man or lady who would design, develop, after which drag issues over to the FTP factor to add to some shared hosts. A few of that is fairly frequent.
However then over time you and I’ve had the privilege of watching greater specializations develop. So we went from webmaster to now entrance finish and backend to DevOps. After which from that to now machine studying engineers, information scientists, after which an rising a part of that is DevRel, is developer relations, I really feel like continues to be fairly younger, however I feel the business has sort of a tree root with branches, has sort of branched off into specializations and I see extra of them occurring.
Tejas: And I feel it’s fairly nice as a result of meaning extra choices for folks to get jobs to possibly begin at an summary degree, however I feel it’s higher for humanity. One concern of mine is that the world is changing into, the tech business is taking up the world, proper? We used to have clothes shops, now now we have on-line firms that promote garments. We used to have journey brokers, now now we have web sites that promote tickets. Like all the things’s changing into tech. And that is a part of the rationale why I used to have sturdy opinions. That is a part of the rationale why I marketing campaign actually arduous for range, equality and inclusion as a result of Plan A was closely unequal of the world, so to talk.
Tejas: I watched a documentary on Columbus yesterday and made me hate the world a bit bit extra, proper? And so I really feel like if we’re present process some sort of tech revolution the place extra firms are tech firms advocating for equity, equality, range and inclusion is massively vital so that individuals don’t get disregarded and equality doesn’t get as skew because it has been traditionally.
Vitaly: I feel it’s additionally this notion typically of I feel us focusing a bit an excessive amount of on pace. I bear in mind vividly having this dialog some time again about, “Oh wow, the know-how is transferring quick, so quick and we’re going to do much less, which goes to do much less as a result of the know-how goes to take over.” It’s the identical approach we see AI now like oh ChatGPT can accomplish that a lot. It may be giving us solutions, higher solutions, sooner solutions, and—
Tejas: Can write code.
Vitaly: You may really quote … yeah, you’ll be able to write code, it may debug and all the things. So we’re going to do much less. However I feel that actuality, I imply at the least in my life up to now it has been very totally different. It turns into sooner, however then we are likely to do far more. We at all times discover a strategy to fill in not essentially the gaps, as a result of these gaps don’t also have a probability to seem, proper? We’re simply transferring. It’s prefer it’s all the things. I’ve the sturdy feeling prior to now. Possibly it’s sort of much like you as effectively, possibly not. I’ve a sense that I used to be doing one factor and I used to be doing it interruptedly, after which I might spend two, three hours on that and I might be sort of accomplished kind of. Now it looks as if, effectively, possibly 23 issues. And yeah, we don’t do them in peril. I don’t actually consider in multitasking or possibly I’m simply actually dangerous at multitasking whereas different persons are a lot better. However I do have a robust feeling that it’s all so fragmented and we accomplish that many various issues on the similar time. And so I don’t consider that know-how is making us redundant in any approach. It’s simply we’re doing sure various things, proper?
Tejas: Precisely.
Vitaly: However speaking about that, one factor I do need to ask as a result of we most likely, I anticipate most likely can hear the voices within the again asking, “Tejas, what about these frameworks and entrance? Let’s speak about cellphone time panorama in 2023.” And one query that individuals ask me, and I need you to reply it’s, we got here from occasions when Jake fear was a giant factor and it nonetheless is a giant factor on many web sites and legacy web site and lots of web sites typically. Do you anticipate this world of frameworks to vary or are we at some degree of maturity the place a react goes to remain, view goes to remain, angle goes to remain? I imply, it’s inconceivable to reply that. That’s why I’m asking you now. What’s your tackle this typically? Ought to we be speaking … like think about 20 years from now we’re sitting in a podcast like this considering, “Bear in mind when React was a factor and look now?”
Tejas: Yeah, you say 20 years, I really feel like one 12 months from now somebody’s going to hearken to this and be like, “Oh my gosh, this stage Tejas was so mistaken about his reply.”
Tejas: No. So I feel to start with, I feel the online is held up by giants who’re underappreciated. And by that I imply particularly jQuery and WordPress energy extra of the web than React interval.
So loads of them folks speak about, “Oh, they’re not cool.” No, no, they energy a lot of the web and I feel they need to be acknowledged. However there was a time within the React story the place React had sufficient momentum and important mass to look cooler than jQuery.
It’s the brand new factor, it’s the brand new business normal. After which jQuery sort of bought diminished although it’s utilization didn’t, nevertheless it’s I assume perceived worth bought diminished and reacted over.
And I feel in 2023 we’re beginning to see a few of that as effectively with React. The place React is used rather a lot. I imply I simply put out a YouTube video about why React is unbeatable. And I do assume it’s unbeatable as a result of right here’s the deal: jQuery and WordPress haven’t been overwhelmed.
Tejas: They’re additionally unbeatable to a point. And now particularly you’ve gotten groups at Google investing in React, investing in how React works in Chrome, et cetera. So I feel React is right here to remain, however I feel it’s perceived worth is diminishing in 2023. And I really feel like it’ll diminish additional with the arrival of superior instruments like Fast and stable particularly.
Vitaly: Proper, proper.
Tejas: And, after all, View and Svelt and Angular are round, so I feel they’ll all keep. It’s at all times on the lookout for this newer shinier factor. The massive enchantment, proper, with the newer stuff with Strong and Fast is that they don’t ship an entire digital dom implementation to the browser, which is heavy and sluggish. So React is objectively slower and heavier than Strong and Fast. And so there’s two sides, now it’s divided. Some would say, okay, nevertheless it’s simply milliseconds. They don’t matter that a lot. It’s not true. It’s been confirmed by Google, by Chrome, that milliseconds make tens of millions. And so I do assume React is seeing its decline, possibly not in utilization however within the common vote in 2023.
Vitaly: However on the similar time additionally see that there are all this sort of superb tuning virtually coming in the place, I don’t know when was that? I can’t monitor drug time anymore. However 5, 10 years in the past, oh, now we have React and now we have this full shopper facet factor and off we go.
However then now once we can run React on the server, we are able to now be a bit extra intelligent I assume, about what will occur on the server, how a lot of it do we have to ship to the shopper and when and when not, and all these issues.
Vitaly: I feel that is, in some ways we moved away from this notion of let’s have one single React utility to let’s have, I don’t know, lots of. Each single element now we have is perhaps a single standalone React utility with its personal life cycle and all that.
And it sort of actually modifications it. However I additionally assume that, I don’t know, I discovered that’s most likely, there is no such thing as a strategy to know for positive. So possibly simply tomorrow there shall be any individual arising with a chat GPT question and that is going to take over each J question and likewise React. I don’t know.
Tejas: Yeah.
Vitaly: Do you’re feeling like one thing like ChatGPTQuery it might exist or assist us not directly? Like bending in physique and making, I don’t know what can I do all the things.
Tejas: I might have an interest to ask chat GPT to put in writing code for the most effective quickest UI library on earth. See what it comes up with. However on a extra severe word, I really feel like a giant contributor to this shift from we’re doing issues on the shopper to we’re doing issues on the server that then influences the event of React and Strong and all of the others to be extra server oriented is these serverless platforms – Versa, Netlify, CloudFlare. These platforms have led to what I’m calling server liberation. Like no one server rendered earlier than, Veril, Netlify, CloudFlare, et cetera. As a result of servers had been inaccessible. They had been arduous to configure for shopper facet apps. You would wish to do a rewrite on a 404 to go to your index or HTML so you’ll be able to obtain the shopper.
Tejas: It was very sophisticated. After which these firms stepped in there like, “Hey wait, we’ll make servers straightforward.” After which if deploying a node server is simple, now you’re like, “Oh, now I can render on the server.” And they also sort of unlocked this. So I really feel like if we need to predict the place the libraries and frameworks will go subsequent, we are able to sort of have a look at what’s the adjoining surrounding supporting tech that will lead them. And I feel that’s sort of a superb indicator. However I’m not ready to make such predictions precisely.
Vitaly: Effectively after all you might be. After all you might be. You’re right here on a podcast. You may predict something, you’ll be able to see the long run. I’m positive you’ve seen it. So right here we go. You may undoubtedly report on that. But additionally transferring possibly to barely totally different matter, simply to discover the panorama. I at all times fascinated by this sense of neighborhood and by this sense of bringing folks collectively, the conferences, and we’ve been operating conferences for a few years now. And also you’ve been to so many conferences as effectively, and I heard rumors, and possibly they’re not true, however I don’t know. I heard rumors that you simply may even be occupied with organising a convention at some point?
Tejas: Yeah, I’m really beginning ContagiousCon. It’s the place all people comes collectively and tells me how a lot they like me.
Vitaly: It’s like a contaga of the SmashingConfs. Thanks for that. However, dude, I’ve been to so many conferences, skilled so many issues that I’ve sort of developed an instinct for what attendees need, what audio system need, and the pains that organizer. I’ve spoken to Charis additionally the pains that organizers need to take care of.
Vitaly: And so bringing this triquetra of experiences, sort of working in coordination with the organizers to supply one thing very wealthy for folks. I feel that’s one thing that I’m very excited for. Additionally connecting organizers to sponsors. Loads of conferences don’t have the privilege of cash and with the quantity of firms I speak to and et cetera, it appears like connecting the precise sponsors to the precise conferences for the most effective expertise for attendees actually. Proper. However do you’re feeling like we’re at this level the place in-person conferences are again for good?
Tejas: Sure, 100%.
Vitaly: Yeah. It appears like totally different components of the world possibly, I don’t know, possibly it’s simply me. Issues a bit bit slower. However I do know for positive is that there’s this sense of sufficient of on-line stuff. We accomplish that a lot stuff on-line anyway. If we do one thing then we do it in individual. Now you having attended so many conferences final 12 months, I feel each nearly and in individual, would you say that sort of on-line conferences are right here to remain? There are nonetheless loads of them round. We needed to do it for some time and now we’re most likely going to maintain it as a stay livestream along with an in-person? Or is it a superb substitute nonetheless?
Tejas: I don’t assume it’s a superb substitute. Nothing will ever exchange face-to-face interactions. I stated, I’m not ready to make predictions about entrance finish stuff. I could make 100% an correct prediction about this. Nothing will ever exchange an in-person interplay face-to-face. No display screen can substitute a heat flesh and blood individual in entrance of you. And so I feel in-person is right here to remain, however loads of firms and group groups have invested money and time into getting the net half, proper? That why ought to we throw it away? Now we have it now.
Tejas: So I really feel like it will likely be a fallback and a second monitor, because it had been. And it’s not dangerous for enterprise. You may promote loads of tickets by quantity for just a few livestream and other people will be part of. And I feel it’s good as a result of there’s individuals who can’t journey that you simply get to incorporate now, proper? So it’s good. So yeah, I feel that’s the long run is in individual, but in addition digital.
Vitaly: What’s your future although? So I imply, I’m very curious. You at all times have these concepts of belongings you need to do typically. I imply, once more, having discovered a lot from all of the totally different firms. There will need to have been some issues that the place you stated to your self, “Okay, I might’ve accomplished it in another way.”
Tejas: Oh man, you’ll be able to’t think about.
Vitaly: Oh, yeah, please go forward. I’m very curious to listen to that.
Tejas: I’ve been in positions the place I’ve been micromanaged to dying, proper, and I’m very, I look again at these and go like, oh my gosh, I might do that so in another way the way in which I’ve accomplished it by not micromanaging folks. I feel that’s most likely the strongest one.
But additionally conferences. I’ve seen conferences do issues mistaken. I feel the largest mistake I’ve seen there’s overselling. They’ll present you a venue that’s packed filled with daylight and all the things and also you get there and it’s simply somebody’s darkish basement.
Vitaly: There isn’t any daylight.
Tejas: No, yeah, they flip off the solar for this one convention. So I’ve seen conferences that can simply not file talks and so they received’t let you know forward of time. So I feel the largest mistake convention organizers have made is an absence of communication about vital issues. I need to know if I’m not going to be recorded, so then I don’t take some time of going there. As a result of a giant draw is that this factor’s going to be recorded and visual for everyone after. And a few conferences have made it identified in no way that your factor’s not recorded after which months go by and also you’re like, the place’s that video? Oh, they didn’t file it. Oh no.
Tejas: So I might do these issues in another way, however what’s subsequent for me? It’s humorous you ask actually, as a result of it’s a brand new 12 months and I’ve devoted this week, so I’m unemployed in case listeners are unaware.
And I’ve began to really feel the squeeze of being unemployed, put it that approach. And I don’t know what’s subsequent. I’ve determined to take this week and determine it out. I feel I do need to spend time creating YouTube content material as a result of I like speaking with folks and reaching folks and actually, yeah, this may sound a bit narcissistic, however blessing them with no matter I can bless them with. So I feel YouTube is one factor I need to preserve. However actually, I don’t know, man, do I be part of an organization as an worker? Do I begin my very own firm? Do I simply stay a freelancer? I don’t know.
So I’m taking this week to speak to good pals and have them converse into my life and provides me the most effective recommendation, who know me effectively. I’m at the moment leaning extra in direction of beginning a… I can’t say an organization for authorized causes, however beginning a sort of firm.
Vitaly: And enterprise.
Tejas: Certain, sure. Begin beginning an enterprises. Beginning an enterprise someplace round DevRel. That appears actually engaging to me. And actually you might be an inspiration for that. Watching you lead smashing, proper?
I need to have the ability to try this. To offer folks a spot the place they are often artistic and do their greatest work, et cetera, whereas additionally incomes a superb amount of cash. I need to create one thing like that. So I’m sort of leaning in direction of that. I don’t know if it’s sustainable or if I’m expert sufficient to do this, however that’s sort of … Plan B, hearken to this privilege. Vitaly, hearken to how ridiculous this sounds.
Tejas: My worst case situation, my like fallback is I get a job at some tech firm and earn a good wage. That’s unbelievable. However that’s sort of plan B is simply take a job someplace. After all, it must be in a area I’m enthusiastic about, that I care about, et cetera. However yeah, that’s sort of the place I’m at.
Vitaly: The place would you see your self typically? I imply there are lots of firms, many people who find themselves attempting to get to the fan membership, the massive ones, the Fb, the Apple, the Google, the Amazon and so forth so forth.
Did you ever take into consideration, okay, I’m going to do no matter is required? And I do know that, once more, wanting that you simply began coding again whenever you had been eight, proper? And also you’re a software program engineer.
I assume that that is perhaps in your agenda to get to this prime 5, prime 10 different firms on the world. Is it attention-grabbing to you or would you reasonably work in a smaller firm?
Tejas: That’s a fantastic query. Yeah, so it was attention-grabbing. I really feel just like the closest I’ve bought to huge firm power is Spotify. And simply by advantage of working at Spotify with 4,000 staff, I discovered in a short time that this isn’t for me. So possibly, however I’m leaning extra in direction of, no, with the bigger tech empire-type firms. I really feel like it might be nice if I had three kids in a really busy private life to go to work and sort of have that a lot construction and rigidity. However at this level in life it’s a no for me.
Vitaly: I feel it’s attention-grabbing as a result of I’m being requested that as effectively. And really I used to be underneath a really sturdy impression in some unspecified time in the future in my life once I was considering that if I need to make a superb profession, I’ve to work in one of many huge ones. I’ve to do no matter it takes.
However me a bit bit. I like my freedom and I don’t need to be sitting day and night time working or something. I imply the work-life stability and I imply all people’s speaking kind of about work-life stability. However I imply it in a really … it’s been arduous to clarify in a really private approach. That means I need to have the ability to say to myself, and that is sort of the final word take a look at that I put for myself.
Vitaly: By no means need to be ready the place at 2:00 PM on any given day, I’ve to inform me myself, “Okay, I don’t need to do that and I’ve to, it doesn’t matter what it takes, I’ve to do it for the subsequent 4 hours, no matter it takes.” And I sort of at all times needed to be ready to say, okay, what? I’m going to go to cinema at 10:00 AM on Monday morning. Frankly, if I’m being very sincere, it actually by no means occurred to me that I really needed that. And it by no means actually occurred to me that I made it or I did it. However I imply, this sort of sense of freedom is essential right here, however not all people can afford that. And it’s loads of threat too.
Tejas: Yeah, it’s additionally an rising development within the business. Zeta works this manner once I was there at the least. It’s extra results-based than time-based. So on paper you’ve gotten a 40 hour sort of work week, however you distribute these 40 hours. Nonetheless, you may do two days straight after which the subsequent day go to a movie show within the morning. In order that they don’t care about whenever you work, it’s simply that stuff will get accomplished. I see that. That occurs with full-time employment too. I really feel like with the fan membership, everybody I talked to at fan firms. My very own expertise at Spotify was, and this isn’t to talk ailing of those firms, there are huge firms with numerous issues taking place.
There’s loads of conferences, loads of conferences to the place you should have a gathering blocked-
Vitaly: And also you don’t like conferences.
Tejas: Me? I like conferences, however I really feel like look, an excessive amount of of any good factor turns into a foul factor. And I really feel like, respectfully, Spotify once I was there, had too many conferences. It did. And it’s not their fault. There was a pandemic and so they’re used to working in workplace. They weren’t distant ever. So the pandemic made them go distant. However then there was loads of studying to do about the best way to be distant. And I joined simply in the course of that the place async conferences had been probably not a factor and it was very sophisticated. And so I used to be simply at my laptop computer all day in video calls as a result of it’s sort of being in an workplace.
Tejas: So no, I didn’t benefit from the conferences. And I discovered not simply me, however I’ve pals at Google, at Meta, they’ll unintentionally round me be like, “Hey, have a look at my cellphone.” They usually’ll present me a photograph from their trip, and I see notifications pop up, “Oh, you’ve gotten assembly at 10 minutes?” They usually faucet on the notification, go to the calendar app and “Oh my God, the carnage on this calendar app.” You have a look at that when you’re like, okay, I don’t envy you. So—
Vitaly: Yeah, I imply certainly conferences are obligatory, nevertheless it’s additionally a matter of the best way to arrange it as a result of for me, or for us and at Smashing for instance, we don’t have many conferences. But additionally, most significantly, all people can set boundaries in a approach. So I wish to have, for instance, like for this name, proper? I wish to have two or three days blocked out when there aren’t any conferences.
Tejas: Sure.
Vitaly: No conferences. Simply virtually, I imply, one thing should occur, one thing dangerous, or too good should occur for the day to have a gathering, proper? And it’s additionally actually nearly having correct boundaries instead of that is once we work, and that is when now we have conferences. Though after all conferences additionally work.
Tejas: Yeah. One lesson I discovered working at so many various locations is folks. I say folks as a result of I do know folks, however even simply talking of myself, folks suck at creating good and wholesome boundaries within the office. I do. I did extra once I was extra inexperienced, however nonetheless it’s a wrestle to have good, sturdy boundaries. I really feel prefer it might work higher if the employer enforced and enabled folks to assume extra about boundaries and even recommended, “Hey, possibly it is best to do a no assembly day.”
Tejas: If managers push, not push boundaries, however how do you say? Set up boundaries on behalf of their folks. Yeah, and that’s one thing I’d wish to see extra of. I haven’t seen the alternative. I’ve seen the dearth of individuals’s potential to set boundaries be exploited much more typically than I’ve seen wholesome boundary setting from the highest.
Vitaly: Proper. Effectively, now I do need to ask although, I’m simply curious at this level, do you then have a dream undertaking that you simply’d wish to work on at some point, possibly, I don’t know, be constructing a, I don’t know, some type of software program for rocket ship or something? Do you’ve gotten any specific ambitions in that regard?
Tejas: I’m actually grateful, Vitaly, to say that this 12 months I’m really spending all of my unemployed time engaged on three dream initiatives of my very own. Considered one of them is a secret. I can’t let you know about that.
Vitaly: Oh, come on. Simply give us a bit of a spoiler then.
Tejas: It’s a really social factor. There may be the spoiler. However the different one is engaged on this DevRel startup co consultancy factor. I’m considering of beginning is the second. And that’s actually enthusiastic about that. Worst case, it fails after which I be part of an organization because it had been. However that’s one thing I’m enthusiastic about. And the third dream undertaking is my YouTube channel, which I’ve needed to be a YouTuber for years, primarily truthfully, as a result of I like reaching folks, but in addition I’ve talking about this Mac OS 10 Aqua Ball factor. I get to do this with video, create stunning movies, and I’m actually into cameras and making good photographs and all the things. And that’s a cool undertaking. It’s a dream undertaking really to be a superb YouTuber, emphasis on the nice as a result of I don’t need to be a median YouTuber. And likewise to have the ability to flip it right into a dwelling. I really feel like my dream can be to only sort of be a full-time YouTuber. Yeah.
Vitaly: However what about TikTok? We don’t see you on TikTok but.
Tejas: Yeah, sadly. I’m not so good at dances.
Vitaly: Effectively, possibly that needs to be the subsequent ability to study.
Tejas: That might be my New Yr’s decision. Get good at shuffling. On daily basis I’m shuffling.
Vitaly: So we’ve been studying a bit bit about entrance finish and JavaScript and AI and the opposite firms and so forth, however what have you ever been studying about recently, Tejas? What have you ever been studying or sort of the ability that you simply’ve been attempting to get acquainted with lately?
Tejas: That’s a superb query. For me, communication might be the factor that I take pleasure in probably the most primarily based on convention talking and stuff. And one factor I’ve been studying is the distinction in mode of communication.
What I imply by that’s like what makes a fantastic in-person convention speak doesn’t really make a fantastic YouTube video. And I discover this fascinating that when it’s a special modality of communication, folks have totally different preferences. So like what I imply by that’s if I come out at Smashing Conf New Yorker, Freiburg, and I’m on stage and I’m like, “What’s up all people?” Excessive power. Individuals are like, wow, that’s superior. But when I do the identical factor on YouTube, they’re like, dude, what are you on? And that’s one thing I’ve been studying the best way to talk successfully on totally different platforms. I’ve but to study the TikTok one, however I feel it’s principally by dance.
Vitaly: You’ll get there. I’ve little doubt about that. All proper. Effectively when you, expensive listener, want to hear extra from Tejas you will discover him on Twitter the place he’s at Tejas Kumar underscore.
We’ll most likely need to have one other name about why underscore. By the way in which, why underscore?
Tejas: As a result of the opposite one was taken. You already know what—
Vitaly: That’s affordable.
Tejas: If that Tejas might delete their deal with after which e-mail me I’d respect it.
Vitaly: Wonderful. So that will be Tejas Kuma underscore. On YouTube the place he’s simply at Contagious Okay and probably on TikTok, the place he’s going to point out his greatest dance strikes and ideas round Svelt and React finally. But additionally on his web site, Teg.as The place-
Tejas: T E J
Vitaly: T E J. Sure, certainly. T E J dot, sure. You too can discover loads of pictures of Tejas as effectively. Effectively, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right now, Tejas.
Do you’ve gotten any parting phrases of knowledge you’d wish to ship to the universe for people who find themselves going to look at us 20 years from now?
Tejas: Sure. I might say this: kindness and compassion is a very powerful.
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